Building The Future Show - Radio / TV / Podcast

Kevin Horek: Welcome back to the show.

Today we have Philip Ziara.

He's a core contributor at Spool Fi or Fi.

Philip,

Philipp Zimmerer: welcome to the show.

Hey, Kevin, great to be

Kevin Horek: here.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on the show.

I think what spools doing and
your role there is actually

really innovative and cool.

But maybe before we get into all that,
let's get to know you a little bit

better and start off with where you.

Philipp Zimmerer: Sure.

Uh, I was born and raised,
uh, in Rings book in Germany.

It's a medium to medium town
in, in southern Germany.

Right.

Kevin Horek: Very cool.

So you went to university.

What'd you take and why?

Philipp Zimmerer: Um, actually
like I went to university.

I moved to the Netherlands for university.

I studied international economics
and, uh, business economics.

Okay.

And I, I went there mostly because I
did an exchange here, uh, in Chicago

in 2008 and when I arrived right.

My, my host dad was, was heavily invested
in the stock market and, or at least

somewhat invested in the stock market.

And I kind of like saw how the
economy can affect like lives.

In the 2008 crash, you know, I just,
um, get a little bit, uh, agitated

about it and I started really getting
interested in, in what's happening there.

Right.

So I wanted to learn more about economics
and that's how I chose my, my path.

Kevin Horek: Interesting.

Okay.

Very cool.

So walk us through your career up until.

Becoming a part of spool,
and then let's dive into

Philipp Zimmerer: that.

Sure.

So actually my career is, uh,
it's, it's pretty colorful, right?

So after university, I, I tried for
a while to get on my feet somehow,

start doing something on my own.

Uh, I was really heavily into sports
back then, so I, I just tried to, tried

to like develop some new, um, Workout
and training programs, just do things

on my own, follow my passions and so on.

Right?

Sure.

But I, I quickly noticed that I, I
need to find like a real job, right?

So I started working in startups
and eventually I stumbled,

uh, upon crypto, right?

And that was six years ago now.

And I started investing,
uh, as a hobby, right?

But it quickly became more serious.

Um, I found some like-minded people.

Um, crypto does that right?

It builds community and it connects,
uh, across the world and those

people turn into really close friends
and then eventually, uh, business

partners and associates, right?

And we started a company
called Faculty Capital.

That still exists to this day.

Um, we started out building a
market maker and starting to provide

liquidity for token markets that are
relatively small, growing from there.

And yeah, faculty Capital eventually
grew into, uh, what is now faculty

group, which is a group of multiple
companies, um, spanning various

area areas of cryptocurrency.

So we still have the
market making, uh, company.

There's marketing.

We incubate projects, uh, we
consult, um, and we build ourselves.

Right?

We have, uh, uh, there's our own studio.

That's basically where, where
Spool was kind of ideated, right?

It came out of my own like consulting
work, uh, observing the market, seeing

what do projects struggle with, what are,
what are current trends, what's going on.

Um, and yeah, I started having this
idea, um, for spool there, right?

Because I, I saw like across
all of the things that I was

doing there, it was a, a very.

Kind of environment.

I started seeing similar pain
points emerge and I tried to figure

out a way to fix them, and that's
essentially what led me to Spool.

Right.

More about that later, I guess.

But yeah, that's my career so far.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

So how did you come up with the exact
idea for spool and what exactly is it?

Philipp Zimmerer: Yeah, I mean,
It, it all started with the, the

defi summer in, in 2020, right?

So, right.

Um, I think we can like,
do a quick primer on defi.

Uh, I think a good way of explaining that
is, um, essentially decentralized finance

tries to, uh, find and build new ways
of putting capital to work productively.

Right?

So regular finance or interest, right.

As many people know.

Works in a way where you are
providing capital, which is, for

example, your savings, right?

Yeah.

To a third party entity that then
puts your capital to work productively

by investing it, by buying up, uh,
treasury bonds from governments,

getting paid for it, and then giving
you back a part of the proceeds, right?

That your capital, uh, generated
right as your interest rate, right?

Defi takes all of that on chain
and uses blockchain technology.

To build new financial primitives
and new financial products that can

generate, uh, a yield, right, based
off of some productive activity.

Maybe it's someone borrowing your funds
right, and paying you an interest rate

for it, or it might be, um, in a liquidity
pool that enables other two trade and

execute trades at a better execution
rate, but paying you fees for the

liquidity that you're providing, right?

All of these are different
sources of what we call.

Right now there is a very varied source.

Like it's a, it's a very wide array of
sources of, of yield, generators, right?

Many different protocols doing
different things, asking users for

their funds temporarily to put it to
use and generate a yield off of it.

So I was figuring, hey, if this
exists in real life, right?

If, mm.

Then, then, and we're copying it and
bringing it on chain and defi, then don't

we also need something like financial
services, like in, in real life, you

would have a bank, you would've a teller.

You, you don't.

As a regular person, you don't go
and invest directly into these,

these primitives that actually
generate your yields, right?

You would go to a financial services
provider, or you would buy an etf, right?

Or you would buy a fixed income product
somewhere that then helps you invest

that and invest your funds and your
capital to generate that yield for you.

But that didn't exist in Defi, right?

It was kind of a wild west.

Everyone was going directly to the
primitives making investment decisions.

They're really not equipped to.

What spool really was supposed
to be is an infrastructure that

allows providers to build flexible
businesses on top of defi, right?

Because my idea was yield, right?

Generating interest on your money.

That's something everyone wants, right?

Because it's really what we need to
do to outperform inflation, right?

I offers very attractive opportunities
for that, but they're very hard to

access and they're very complicated.

It's very hard for you
to see the risks in that.

Right?

So interesting.

I thought there need to be financial
services that make this easier for people.

And these financial services, they
need code because it's all code-based.

It's all on the internet, right?

They need.

A simple like infrastructure slash
toolbox to access all of these yields

to build products that they can then
market to the according audiences.

And this is spool, right?

Spool is a middleware that makes
all of these different defi.

Or financial primitives that generate
yield accessible ultimately to the

end user without needing to know
about all of this stuff, without

needing to know how to read code, how
to read smart contracts, et cetera.

Right.

You just get to the good stuff right away.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Very cool.

So walk us through then how somebody
would actually use the platform.

I get it's like, can you
maybe just generally.

Yeah, you can get, we can
get pretty technical pretty

quickly,

Philipp Zimmerer: right?

No, let's keep it super high level, right?

So as an end user, you would probably not
even know that you're using spool, right?

Because you would probably
access spool or use spool

through a product that you found.

So like as an end user, you might go,
uh, uh, You, you might have, uh, let's

say a couple thousand dollars at your
proposal and you'd go, Hey, I, I wanna

invest this somewhere where I can get
a, like a flexible yield, but I also

wanna keep full access to my funds.

Right?

I wanna, I wanna be able to withdraw,
like it's a checking account, right?

So you go on the app store or you
go on Google and research, Hey,

how can I invest flexibly, right?

Yeah.

And then someone, or some party
or some company building, uh,

an application on top of spool.

Would be marketing there, right?

They would be advertising there,
like, let's say some personal finance

app that rounds up your coffee
purchase and invests that for you.

Something like that.

You know, something that
like, or something more

innovative than that, right?

Because that already exists, right?

Just an example that everyone understands.

And this party would've built a
financial product on top of spool

that taps into all of these different,
uh, yield primitives, right?

That are, uh, that we're making access.

For, for these companies, right?

So that's one example.

That's one user story, right?

That's for the, your average retail user
that wants nothing except to go on an app.

Wire a thousand dollars through
whatever payment app or a bank wire or

whatever, whatever they're using, right?

And then see their, their funds, their
capital take up slowly based on the

interest rate that we're generating.

But this is not some sort of
like scheme or anything, right?

Your funds are routed through the provider
that you've chosen through spools,

middleware infrastructure, straight
into protocols that actually do so.

Like provide liquidity or enabling
borrowing over collateralized lending that

actually generates that yield for you?

Right.

So you, you, defi is really cool
because it can zap your money very

quickly into these yield generating
opportunities, whereas a bank would

take a couple business days to
actually start doing anything for you

and your funds would be locked up.

In Defi, the user can just sap it
back out, back into their real wallet.

Right.

And make use of the funds and the,
the interest that they've generated.

Right.

And that's an end user story, right?

We're making that accessible for them.

Kevin Horek: Okay, got it.

So let's, if I'm a developer,
I'm a company, how do I.

Get spool into my product to, to
basically build an app, maybe like

what you outlined or, or some,

Philipp Zimmerer: something else.

Yes.

Perfect.

Yeah, that's, that's another user story.

Right?

And, and that's a perfect question
actually, because you're getting now

really into like the meat of the value
add that spool really brings, right?

So now I'm a developer and I see, hey,
there's all of this yield out there.

I could build a really cool
financial product out of this, right?

Sure.

But, All of these
different protocols, right?

They, they have all
different smart contracts.

So I need to build an adapter
for all of these, right?

I need to build adapters that allow me
to funnel the money in and then compound

whatever token I'm receiving or whatever
yield I'm receiving, and then funnel that

back out in the base asset that I put in.

Because some of the yield is
generated in as an E R C 20 token

that you would have to then sell
off on a different exchange, right?

To actually get to the yield
in the dollars that you've put.

Right, and it can get very, very
complex because there's so many

protocols out there, and then all
of them have like different sort of

risk characteristics to it, right?

They're risky in different
ways, shape or form.

So you would need to perform a proper
audit on these, on these protocols

as well, because again, right,
blockchain is a very open system.

Anyone can create.

Fake products as well.

Right?

Right.

So you might be tapping into a fake
product that actually steals your money.

Right.

What spool does for you though, is we
are building all of these adapters,

all of these infrastructure, right?

And we're actually providing a
risk management infrastructure

as well, where you can tap into
professional risk providers.

Risk scoring, uh, um, risk scoring outputs
that give you a clear idea of, Hey,

how risky is this protocol as a whole?

What risks are associated with it?

How is the yield generated?

How is the, how are the funds used?

What are possible ways where,
where this could go wrong?

Right?

In this way, we are giving
you sort of a no-code platform

that allows you to assemble.

The product that fits the exact like
sort of risk appetite and risk reward

structure of your given audience, right?

Sure.

And as a developer, right?

The clear advantages with spool, you'll
have your product ready within 10

minutes because it's a no quote platform.

All the adapters are preconfigured.

All you're doing is go through a
five step process of assembling.

Yield generating product of your
choice that you can then through our

sdk, embed in your ui, your brand,
your front end, whatever you're

choosing, and then your end user will
never even hear about spool, right?

They will just see your product and
they will see it generates this amount

of yield at current rates because
this is, all of the information

that's full is live feeding.

Through our SDK and
through our APIs, right?

So you can just display that and
you have a, a financial service

ready to go, and if your front
ends ready in less than 30 minutes.

Kevin Horek: Fascinating.

Okay.

Very cool.

Can you maybe give us some other use
cases of how people have actually

implemented spool, either in, in
their own apps, and, and then what

does the customer kind of see?

Philipp Zimmerer: Yeah, for sure.

So, uh, some other use cases are
obviously, uh, institutions, right?

So, um, institutional investors
in, in crypto and in blockchain,

as you might know, right?

Storing your assets, you're.

Crypto has this mantra of
being your own bank, right?

Right.

But storing your own assets
gets kind of iffy very quickly.

Right?

Because if you're in charge of remembering
your own private key, that means

you're one like seed phrase, getting
lost or, uh, forgetting something away

from actually losing access to all of.

Right Now, this is fine with certain
amounts, but if you're an institution

that is potentially holding other
clients' assets, you're going to

engage a professional custodian.

Right?

Right.

So, um, what, what we're doing
with school is we're really taking

an institutional approach here.

We're trying to.

Create accessibility for institutions
and for that we're working with,

um, custodian partners, right?

For example, such as fly fire blocks
or, or ledger to make, um, make these

yields available for their customers.

While they're holding custody.

Now let's, let's, let's get,
let's walk through two scenarios

with spool and without spool.

So without spool, if I'm, uh, an
institution having a hundred million

dollars custodied with some custodian,
and I'm asking these guys, Hey, uh,

I see an opportunity to generate a
risk free or a low risk 6%, uh, yield

on, on my assets, uh, in crypto.

Can you please deposit my funds?

Here, here and here, right the then.

The custodian is kind
of in trouble, right?

Because he needs to diver or they
need to diversify these assets

between the chosen protocols, right.

Interact with different UIs.

Um, not really, like, there,
there is a lot of things that

can go wrong here, right?

Sure, yeah.

Whereas with spool, they can
simply use our, our, uh, our

platform and generate smart faults.

As specified by their, like
by their depositors, right.

Uh, um, the institution that
they're, uh, that they're

holding the assets for, right?

Yep.

And just create that smart vault that
they're asking for and simply deposit.

We're single point of access, right?

That we're giving.

So we're basically pre
configuring everything.

We're providing the rails
for them to simply deploy.

The, the capital in the exact way that
the cust that their customer specified.

So we're making their
lives super easy that way.

And we're, we're finding like, we're
getting great, great feedback, um, for,

for the set of the, um, of, of, of, of
spool, right, of the user experience.

And this is, for example, I think
our, our, one of our most exciting

use cases, because it's a, it
solves a real problem, right?

Custodians.

Like institutions hold funds with
custodians, but they would also like

to take advantages of what, like
passive yield they could be generating.

But custodians are right, uh, have
been facing this issue of there not

being enough infrastructure for them
to effectively deploy this amount of

capital without feeling like kind of
iffy about potentially losing some

of it or, or making a mistake, right?

Spool solves all of that and just
creates a streamlined experience.

Interesting.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

No, that makes sense.

So you're a core contributor.

What does that really mean?

And you can basically lose your
power, like explain your role because

it, it's a different, it's not re I
think a lot of people don't work on

a project the way that, you know.

Being a core contributor is
something actually works.

So I think maybe just explain
what that is and, and why

Philipp Zimmerer: it's unique.

Yeah.

So it's, it's pretty interesting, right?

So, uh, when we bootstrapped bull
right, we kind of started to feel

the need of it needing to be.

A very democratically
accessible platform, right?

Because Okay.

Yeah.

We are trying to build, now this is a
crypto culture kind of thing, right?

Yeah.

So we're trying to build middleware, we're
trying to build infrastructure that allows

access to, uh, defi primitives right now.

Imagine, uh, a future
where spool actually route.

Tons and tons of capital.

Like we, we generate, we, we
capture a large market share and

we route a ton of the capital that
is actually flowing, um, into these

yield generating protocols, right?

So we would technically, if we were
a centralized entity, we would kind

of have the power to start bullying
some of these protocols right by.

Showing them in the UI or not building
adapters for them and basically

cutting them out of all of this capital
that could be routed through spool.

Right?

And this introduces like a
lot of room for bad behavior.

So we wanted to sort of open up and
make all of this, these decision

making processes more transparent.

So we started lo uh, spool
as a dowel, which means.

We have a governance token, um, called vo
spool that you can acquire by, um, getting

the native token spool and staking it.

And then vo spool, which is
your governance power, starts

accruing in your wallet.

So the longer you're with us, the
the stronger your voice grows, right?

So to avoid any problems like someone.

Buying a bunch of tokens, making
some troll votes, and then selling

them again without being actually
affected by their own troll VO votes.

Right?

And, and in this way, we
are kind of building, uh, a

sort of democratic council.

Everyone that wants to be part of
school can be part of school by

accumulating VO school and helping us,
for example, decide which protocol.

Include next, right.

Or which protocol to make
accessible in within spool.

And I think it creates a very interesting
dynamic because, um, we kind of rely

on wisdom of the crowds to pick up
on, on new trends, pick up on new

protocols that might become interesting.

And one of the things is, for
example, us now deploying on, uh,

an Ethereum layer two called ar.

And making strategies accessible there
because the community asked for it.

Right.

Right.

And this power, like you alluded
to, I can use, I can lose my

power in the sense that all of the
core contributors are appointed.

By the people with the vo spool, right?

So when there's a proposal of, hey,
um, this person has like this idea of

how to improve spool, how to work on
spool, um, or we, we wanna hire this

developer for this purpose for spool.

So therefore we would like to ask the,
the dow for this amount, uh, $80,000 a

year to retain this person to work for
the Dow on implementing new strategy.

Right?

Right.

This is put to a.

For all multiple voters to actually
free up that capital and um, yeah.

Allow us to actually pay
for these contributors.

So in that sense, right, I could lose
my power if the community, or if,

if the majority of VO voters decided
I'm not doing a great job, you know,

they could launch a proposal and ask
for my removal in that sense, right?

So I think that's very important
to keep everyone account.

Another thing that is very P public
is the project's finances, right?

Every.

Can see our like finance,
finances on chain.

Right?

Right.

Every movement of funds and so
on is, is perfectly visible.

So this removes all agents here, right?

I couldn't even, like even if I wanted to,
I couldn't even steal the funds because

they're in a Multisig wallet, which is
a wallet that requires multiple people

to sign from their individual wallets
to actually enable a transaction, right?

So nobody can take the money or, and run.

Nobody can pay for their
expensive dinners or their.

Business class flights without
everyone knowing about it.

And I think this is a really cool
way of like really making sure that

shareholders are, or, or token holders are
appropriate, appropriately represented.

Right.

Kevin Horek: Yeah, totally.

Because I, well, I think a lot of
companies need that, whether they're on,

you know, in the financial, like you Yeah.

Right.

Like I think every company
almost needs that in some.

In some respects.

Right.

Um, so I'm curious, obviously crypto
right now is kind of all doom and

gloom and, and even tech in general.

Where, what do you, or where do
you see the state of the industry?

Like, I own some crypto.

I, I don't, I think it'll come back
like, I think it's here to stay.

So like, I'm not all doom and gloom
just for some context, but how do

you see the state of the industry
and, and where are we really at

Philipp Zimmerer: in your.

Yeah, so I, I'm a bit of a weird case
there because I've been in crypto for such

a long time, you know, and usually when
you, when you meet guys like me, you would

assume they're like diehard crypto bulls.

You know, they're gonna tell you
everything's going to the moon

and everything's the future.

But I, I think I take a little
bit of a more grounded approach

when it comes to all of it.

I think that like crypto is not like a.

Homogenous industry, right.

Crypto is an idea that is in a way
also pretty like, sort of, I guess,

almost libertarian in a, in a way
where, hey, this is a network.

This is a platform.

This is sort of a, an open
financial market, and you can

try whatever you want on here.

Nobody's gonna stop you.

Right?

Right.

Naturally, an environment like this,
Also always attract bad actors, right?

Sure.

People that will make false
promises sell tokens very quickly.

It's a very liquid and very fast market.

Right?

Drum up a hype cycle for a new token.

Make a bunch of promises, sell the token,
and then sort of slow, pull the slow fade

and never really deliver on your promises.

Just hire.

Team, uh, that sits somewhere on
the other end of the world and to

do something so it doesn't look
like you're completely exit scammed.

Right?

And just do that.

And there is no real way of
punishing that in crypto.

And as long as that doesn't exist, um,
I think a lot of like crypto will always

be sort of, Yeah, kind of at taint
on, on the reputation of the industry.

And the sad thing is that all of
these, these things, they really

hide a lot of the innovation because
there's a good side to crypto as well.

There's a lot of really, really
good things going on, right?

Like in Defi, if you think about it.

Are financial opportunities really
like fairly accessible to everyone?

Like if I told you right now there's a
guy, uh, with 50 million and someone else

with $50,000, would you say yes or no?

Yeah.

These guys have the same opportunities
available to them financially,

regardless of the amount.

I'm purely talking about percentage
returns on, on what they would be.

Right,

Kevin Horek: right.

Yeah.

Philipp Zimmerer: I guess,
yeah, probably not so much.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So, so, so defi kind of evens
the playing field there, right?

Because like I just told you, the
way dowels are structured, the way

the, the, the, the, the protocols are
structured, anyone can access them

and the way that they want, right?

So there's a lot of cool things happening.

Uh, uh, in crypto because technically
you could have a financial environment

where financial opportunities are
equally available to everyone and

not blocked by things like, oh.

You're not rich enough, so you can't get
an account with the right, like asset

managers or at the right private bank.

Oh, well, you're not over this
arbitrary line of 1 million.

So you're not an accredited investor.

Sorry.

We have to keep you out
of all of the good deals.

Right?

All of this.

Technically it doesn't have to exist.

It's kind of blocking people from, from
having equal financial opportunities.

I think that defi, um, this, for
example, one of the very, very

promising things, regardless of market
fluctuations, fluctuations th and

gloom, which you originally asked about.

That can really have a long-term
positive impact on, on, on people

and their financial opportunities.

Right?

Yeah.

And I think that we can zoom out
from short-term doom and gloom.

How do tokens perform?

How, what's the Bitcoin price tomorrow?

What's it gonna be in a week?

And we can really think about.

What's actually being built that adds
long-term value to people, that offers new

opportunities, and that really fulfills
this promise of, of crypto, of, of giving

new financial opportunities to people.

Of being your own bank, being
your own master when it comes to

your, your own financial future.

Kevin Horek: No, a hundred percent.

Uh, I always relate it to kind of
the early days of the internet.

In the nineties, I would say, when it's
starting to hit kind of mass, people

were like, this is not gonna be around.

This is terrible.

Nobody's ever going to use this.

And now look where the internet is today.

Right?

Yeah.

Even though it was created
what, late seventies.

So like it, it's interesting to me,
just to your point a second ago, is

there's so much tech being built on
it that will be used in the future

and people will be, their transactions
will be on the blockchain and they.

Or even maybe get run through
crypto and not even know it.

Right.

It's just, and arguably, I always say
the perfect example is we've been using

cryptocurrency for a number of years.

Like if you have a Starbucks card
and you load American money on it

or whatever currency, you can go
to another country and swipe your

Starbucks card and, and it works, right?

And you get your coffee and
it's like a simple, basic form.

Crypto, maybe it doesn't have all the
blockchain stuff behind it, but it's the

same concept we've been using currently.

Right.

For a number of years
without thinking about it.

Philipp Zimmerer: E exactly.

No, no.

In the example that you
just mentioned, right?

No real money gets moved.

Right.

There is no dollar bills
moving somewhere around.

It's, it's balances on a ledger.

Yeah.

And crypto is simply a decentralized
ledger where these balances are

publicly accessible and trustless.

Right.

And um, immu.

Totally.

Kevin Horek: So you brought up something
before we were recording that I've been

thinking a lot about, and I think a lot
of people have, I think millennials,

especially sometimes and and maybe
some older generations and some younger

generations, is h how inflation is
really affected everyone, right?

And, and yeah.

How do we keep up with it or what
are your thoughts around that?

Because I think a lot of people
have been thinking about that or

struggling with inflation lately.

Philipp Zimmerer: Yeah.

It, it's been on my mind like
for, for quite a long time.

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna turn
30 this year and, you know, I have a

lot of friends, like the peers that I
went to university with, to school with.

Right.

Sure.

And our, our generation kind of struggles
like, It's really, really hard for

people nowadays to afford something that
previous generations took for granted.

Like owning their own home.

Right?

Totally.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of that
has to do with how prices are

developing versus wages, right?

How inflation is sort of
slowly, uh, disowning us kind

of without us even noticing.

And then a general apathy, because I think
economics, It's super fascinating and

economics is in all of our lives, right?

Right.

Like the economy affects us all, whether
we want it or not, but we're kind of

being taught, Hey, this is a boring topic.

Leave this to the smart bankers,
to the smart people to figure

out, don't worry about it.

Just, just follow the path that
we've laid out for you in life.

Right?

Yeah.

But the, the, the reality is that our
generation more than ever needs ways

to like, Generate money or generate
capital off of their income, right?

And start compounding and to keep
up with inflation or even to beat

inflation, because otherwise, how are we
ever going to, as a generation, right?

Afford our own homes, afford
to start families, right?

These are the questions.

That are relevant for our generation.

Right.

Totally.

So this is also part of the reason
why spool is, is is being built.

Right.

And why we're trying to build out spool.

Because I think, right.

I think now we are kind of coming
full circle on the, on this whole

chat that we've been having, right?

Defi offers financial opportunities, but.

On, on paper.

Right.

But technically they're super
hard to access because you need

to kind of be into crypto, right?

Right.

You need to be able to
assess smart contracts.

You don't know what the risks are.

You might go into like, oh, oh wow.

I found this new awesome, awesome yield
opportunity that yields me 300% per year.

And then, Your lizard brain kicks in
and you go in there and then obviously

it turns out to be like non-sustainable
or even a scam and you lose your money.

Right?

This is like sort of the difficult part.

The opportunities are
there, but they're so vast.

You need to, you need to find a way
to access them easily and securely.

Right?

And this is what, what I
kind of see as our mission.

It's to build a new generation of
financial products for a new generat.

Right of people that allows easy access
to hopefully enable everyone, no matter

what their financial literacy is, to
start like finding or finding a way to at

least wean off inflation to some degree.

Right.

And combat it and just do better for
themselves and hopefully afford everything

they want for themselves in their lives.

Kevin Horek: Interesting.

I, I agree with you.

I think it's interesting, but
what advice do you give to people?

Because doing your own
investments is scary and it's

very easy to get burned, right?

Philipp Zimmerer: Yeah.

So, so what advice would I give people?

Like my number one advice is I
don't give investment advice, right?

Like, I, fair enough.

I, with, with friends and family,
I kind of funny story, right?

I made my experiences.

You know when you start giving advice,
like people ask you, whoa, why you made?

You made some money with crypto.

Hey, can you give me some advice?

You can go down, down one
out of two roads, right?

Like either you give them some advice
that works out, they make money.

Yeah.

They will te say, wow,
I'm a genius investor.

Good on me that I made
the right decisions.

Or they lose money with it.

Which in which case they're like,
Hey, wait a minute, this isn't my.

Phil gave me bad advice.

Phil.

What's up man?

Why did you tell me to
like, get into this?

It was, it was garbage.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

So this is sort of, I was like, Nope.

Yeah, I'm done with this.

You know, I'm, I'm not
gonna give any more advice.

And I think we could instead
give people more general advice.

Right.

The, the more general advice is, um,
don't let greed, Claudia, judgment, right?

Yeah.

Do proper due diligence and when you
trust the third party, With your money.

Always think about what could
be some hidden agendas there.

Right.

Do you see through, um, do you see through
every like sort of intention these parties

that you're investing with, uh, have, if
you don't understand what you're investing

in and where the yield or where the
money is coming from, then traditionally

you're the yield for someone else, right?

Right.

That's my advice.

Right.

Kevin Horek: Interesting.

Yeah, no, I think that that makes a lot
of sense cuz you're right, like everybody

was saying, buy Bitcoin a number of
years ago and a lot of people got burned.

Right.

And not saying just is what it is.

Right.

And yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's hard.

Right.

Um, so I'm, I'm curious, where do you
see the future of kind of web three?

And, and kind of blockchain and
crypto, like I get, they're all

completely unrelated, but kind
of related at the same time.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have any predictions, like do
you think AI and machine learning are

gonna be really heavily into kind of
the, the defi space or, or the crypto

space, or, or what are your thought.

Philipp Zimmerer: So I think that
like crypto will continue to be sort

of a hot bad for innovation, both
innovation that is actually viable and,

and very, very large bubbles, right?

So, mm-hmm.

I think that there's like a lot of
ambition that is being kind of stripped

down and marketed within crypto,
like ai, machine learning, metaverses

are all of these concepts that are
seemingly trivialized because, hey, I.

These things are going to be big in
the future, so I'm going to buy a token

that says it's related to that topic.

Right?

Right.

That's kind of what happens.

And then massive bubbles blow up until
someone realizes, Hey, now all of these

tokens are worth billions, but the
Metaverse looks like a Nintendo 64 game,

so, Maybe, maybe this is overvalued.

Then it just goes the other way, right?

And now then the next thing happens.

It's like ai, wow.

Yeah.

Jet G P T.

Amazing.

Let's buy all the AI coins out there.

And then maybe at some point we'll
realize that actual real AI is

still a little bit of a ways off.

And that little way is actually
pretty har, like includes some

pretty hard challenges to overcome.

So maybe it's still gonna take a
while and then that goes back as well.

Right.

But I think it's.

Some of these things, they're going
to stick at some point, right?

Yeah.

And then I think that blockchain
and crypto is going to be at

the forefront of it, right?

So Defi, by the way, went through the same
kind of cycle, um, coming back to Defi

because it's really my core of expertise.

Right.

Defi kind of exploded.

People started building like
experiments, new ways of money that

just generated massive amounts of yield.

But then they had like all
of these flywheel going, but

flywheel can turn the other way.

Right, right.

So they became reflexive and collapsed.

So we basically had a generation of.

Of of transparent Ponzi schemes, right?

Like every afterwards everyone saw,
hey, actually this was a Ponzi scheme.

It was just wasn't run by a single
person, it was run by a smart contract

and we were kind of all buying into it.

Like, and I think that kind of
smudged the name of Defi and

it's kind of an issue, right?

Sure.

That's also one thing of crypto.

The things that are flashiest and perform
best are also often the most risky.

Then people.

Suckered into it because it's flashy
and then they get burnt because it

collapses, and then they're not gonna
be differentiating, oh wow, maybe this

just wasn't the right, like actual defi.

Maybe this was just,
maybe it was my fault.

They're gonna say, no,
all of Defi is a scam.

It doesn't work.

And right now we're trying to kind
of dig ourselves out of that hole.

So I, I know this was kind of
an unorganized answer, but it

kind of paints a picture, right?

Of these like hype cycles that
are happening within crypto.

So I think all of them will go
through the same way, right?

Like Metaverse, ai, all of them, they,
they're gonna blow up A lot of un unreal

expectations are gonna be built up.

At some point.

Someone's gonna call bull.

Sorry, I don't know if I can't.

No, it's fine.

Yeah.

Uh, and then it's all
gonna collapse, right?

A lot of people are going to have bought
at the peak, lose a lot of money, and then

that's when like, you enter this quiet
cycle where real innovation is built and

this is where we're at in Defi right now.

Right?

Kevin Horek: Yeah.

Interesting.

I, yeah, I, I agree with you.

I, I think, I don't think it's
a, um, Like a mishmash answer.

I think the reality is, is that's just
kind of where the space is right now.

Right.

And I think openly talking about the
pros and cons of what's happening right

now are extremely important, right?

Yeah.

And, and so I think it
makes a lot of sense.

The one thing I, I hear sometimes,
because blockchain, for example, is such

kind of a, you know, buzzword right now.

Everybody, or well, maybe some
non-technical people think that

they need to build everything on the
blockchain, and I think sometimes

you do, sometimes you don't.

What are your thoughts around when to
use some of these technologies and when

not to use some of these technologies?

Philipp Zimmerer: Uh, do you want the nice
answer or the real and cynical answer?

Uh, why don't you give us both?

All right.

So I think the nice answer is, um, You
should use blockchain when you actually

see a genuine use case in there, right?

Sure.

Like if you can, can't explain to
me how your product is better with

blockchain or even only possible with
blockchain than without, then you

probably shouldn't build on blockchain.

If you build on blockchain anyway,
then it's because of my cynical answer,

it's because it's, uh, a market or.

Again, right?

Like it's a platform where you can
very, very quickly generate a hype

and then monetize that hype, right?

By selling tokens to people which are not
like registered securities or anything,

which means you don't really actually owe
these people or these investors anything.

So you can very easily make a lot
of money out of hot air and damage

everyone else that is trying to build
legit things, and then right off into

the sunset with your bags of money.

So, yeah, those are the two answers.

No, I,

Kevin Horek: interesting.

No, I, I, I love the
honesty, to be honest.

So we're kind of coming to the end of
the show, but I really want, do you have

any other advice for people that are
looking to maybe build something in the

defi space or, or any other advice that
you've learned along the way as an entre?

Philipp Zimmerer: Um, oh man.

Wow.

This is, there's so much advice because
like, I made so many mistakes, you

know, and I learned so much from them.

Uh, I guess the core advice would
be like, don't stress too much.

Because you will make a ton of mistakes.

You will.

You just will don't, yeah.

That's why you don't stress about it.

You don't stress about it at all because
you will and you will learn from them

and you will will grow from them.

And I think that people get stuck in
analysis paralysis of wanting to do

everything right the first time around.

And this is probably the biggest
mistake that you can avoid.

My advice would.

If you want to do something, just go and
try to do it, and you will probably fail.

You will get stuck in your tracks
within the first couple weeks,

and it's okay because you're gonna
understand why you got stuck.

Then you're gonna have your next idea, and
then you're gonna make it to three months.

And the third time, you're gonna
make it all the way and raise a

seed round, and then you're gonna
have your own product on the way.

Right?

And this means if you make it to the
third time where you're actually taking

off, that means your first two tries
weren't actually mistakes, they were

just part of your path to getting there.

Right?

And this is my core advice.

Just go and do it.

How did you

Kevin Horek: get over that
fear and actually do it?

Because I, I had the same issue and
I got over it, and I'm curious to

know, how did you, what made you
actually decide to keep going and get

over

Philipp Zimmerer: that?

Uh, man, I just talked to big game,
you know, like spool, like the, the

version one of Spool that is out right
now and working, it's actually version

three of Spool because our first two
just got stuck somewhere along the way.

Right.

But I already had talked to big game
of saying, yeah, I'm gonna do this.

And then I had to the choice
of like, oops, say I failed.

Not gonna work this way.

Do I wanna do it again or do I
want to go back and tell everyone

that I'm not doing it after all?

And yeah, I just decided, nope, I'm
not gonna give anyone, like, I'm just

gonna keep moving out of spite and
I'm just gonna find a way to do it.

Right.

That's how I got over it.

Just, I didn't wanna be seen as the
guy who like gave up or talked a

big game and then didn't deliver.

No, I,

Kevin Horek: I think that's
actually really good advice.

But we're, we're out of time, so how
about we close with mentioning where

people could get more information
about yourself, spool, and any

other links you wanna mention?

Philipp Zimmerer: Yeah.

Uh, just follow us on Twitter at
spooly and join our discord, like

all the links to our socials are
on Twitter, so start there at, on

Twitter and just reach out to me.

I'm on Discord every single day.

I'm very open.

It's a doll, right.

It's a super open culture.

Just get involved in the doll.

You do.

You don't need to do anything.

Just come into the discord and chat.

Right.

Kevin Horek: Perfect, Philip.

Well, I really appreciate you taking the
time outta your day to be on the show, and

I look forward to keeping in touch with
you and have a good rest of your day, man.

Philipp Zimmerer: Yeah, thanks Kevin.

Thanks for having me, and thanks
everyone for listening until the end.

See around.

Kevin Horek: Thank you.

Okay.

Bye.

Bye